ED" ITED STATES DISTRICT COURT OR THE DISTRI CT OF COLUMBIA IN RE: JOHN DOE Grand Jury No. 03-3 3rd & Constitution, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20001 Friday, March 5, 2004 The testimony of I. LEWIS LIBBY was taken in the presence of a full quorum of the Grand Jury, commencing at 10:40 a.m., before: RON ROOS Deputy Special Counsel United States Department of Justice PETER ZEIDENBERG Deputy Special Counsel United States Department of Justice KATHLEEN M. KEDIAN Deputy Special Counsel United States Department of Justice PATRICK FITZGERALD Special Counsel U.S. Attorney's Office, Chicago FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 PROCEEDINGS I. LEWIS LIBBY was called as a witness and, after first being duly sworn by the Foreperson of the Grand Jury, was examined and testified as follows: EXAMINATION BY MR. FITZGERALD: Q. And Mr. Libby, if you could state your name for the record and spell your name? A. I. Lewis, L-e-w-i-s; Libby, L-i-b-b-y. Q. And do you have a nickname? I A. I do. I Q. Okay. And that is -- A. Scooterf1. I I Q. Okay. Andcanyougiveusabriefdescriptionof how you got the name "Scooter" so no one spends their time thinking about that? A. Are we classified in here? It's --my family is from the south and it's less, it's less uncommon than it is up here. Q. Okay. Good morning. There's a glass of water in front of you. That's not from a prior witness, so feel free to use it. A. Thank you. I I FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 Q. Let me just introduce myself again. My name is Pat Fitzgerald. I'm a Special Counsel in this matter, joined by other attorneys with the Special Counsel's Office seated at the table. And this Grand Jury is investigating possible offenses of different laws that include Title 50 of the Unitec States Code, Section 421, which concerns the disclosure of the identity of a covert agent; Title 18 of the United States Code, Section 793, which is the illegal transmission of national defense information; or Title 18, Section 641, theft of government property; or Title 18 United States Code, Section 1001, false statements. That means that this Grand Jury is investigating those offenses. It doesn't mean there's any determination been made whether or not those offenses have been committed. I can also tell you that a Grand Jury is entitled to charge any other offense that they determine has been committed if they learn about that offense during the course of this investigation. But generally the investigation concerns the possible illegal disclosure of classified information. Do you understand the general nature of the investigation? A. Idolsir. Q. I should tell you that you have a constitutional right to refuse to answer any question if a truthful answer would tend to incriminate you. Do you understand that you have that right? FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 A. I do, sir. I Q. And you should understand that if you choose to I answer questions, any answer that you do give can'be used against you by the Grand Jury or in any other legal proceeding. Do you understand that? A. I do. Q. And you should understand that if you choose to, I answer questions, you could stop at any time and decide not to I answer any further questions based upon your Fifth Amendment privilege. Do you understand that? A. I do, sir. I Q. In simple terms, just because you answer a hundred questions doesn't mean you have to answer the next question. I Do you understand that? A. I do. I Q. And you have a right to consult with an attorney, and if you could not afford an attorney one could be appointed by the Court for you. Do you understand that? I Q. And in fact, you are represented by an attorney. Is 1 that correct? A. That is correct. I Q. And could you just state your attorney's name and spell his last name? I A. Joseph A. Tate, T-a-t-e. I FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 Q. And is he in the building today? A. He is. Q. And you understand that the Grand Jury will allow you a reasonable opportunity to leave if you need to consult Mr. Tate prior to answering any questions. Do you understand that? A. I do, sir. Q. And, and are you an attorney yourself? A. I am. Q. And do you understand that any testimony that you give is under oath and that if you make any deliberate false statement about a material or important fact, you could be prosecuted for perjury? Do you understand that? A. I do understand that. Q. And what that means is that if someone were to make a false statement they should assume that anything we ask about during the course of today's Grand Jury is something that is material or important to that investigation. You understand that? A. Yes,sir. Q. And because it's critical for the Grand Jury to know all the facts, witnesses may not know the context for a question, so they should assume that it's important to the Grand Jury. A. Yes, sir. FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 Q. And 1/11 give you a brief example which we discussed prior to your coming in with your attorney, which is that if we were investigating a fatality involving a car, we might want to find out whether it was an accident or foul play, and if a witness knew about a person involved in the accident lhaving an argument just prior to the, the traffic fatality, I they should tell the authorities about the argument and not think ahead and think that it puts their friend in a bad light. They should just state the facts and let the authorities decide what really happened. Do you understand Q. And you also understand that we may ask questions labout state of mind, which is what people thought, believed or understood, and that may be important to the Grand Jury in order to determine motivation? A. Yesfsir. I Q. And if, if someone does commit a false statement or lcommit perjury. they could be prosecuted by up to five years in jail for each such false statement. Do you understand that? A. Yes, sir. MR. FITZGERALD. And I will remind you, as I remind the Grand Jury, that it's important to tell witnesses what the /consequences are for perjury so that we make sure that all I FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 witnesses understand the seriousness of the proceeding. We I are not at all prejudging any witness by telling them what I their obligations are and you shouldn't take my advising Mr. Libby of those obligations as any indication by us that we're prejudging whether a witness will be truthful or not. I BY MR. FITZGERALD: I Q. And I will also tell you, as you were advised prior to coming in, in the presence of your attorney, that based I upon your conduct in this investigation and in particular I contact with reporters, you, among others, are a subject of the investigation. And that does not mean that anyone has I decided to charge you with any crimes, but just is to advise you of the serious nature of the proceeding. Do you understand that? A. I do. Q. And do you have any questions about the nature of the proceeding? A. No, sir. Q. And are you prepared to proceed? A. I am. I Q. Okay. Why don't you tell the Grand Jury what your job titles are and then give us a brief explanation of what your duties are? I A. I have three job titles at the moment. One is I Assistant to the President; one is Chief of Staff to the Vice- 1 FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 President; and the last is National Security Advisor to the Vice President. And as National Security Advisor to the Vice President it's my job to advise him on issues of national security, to meet with and represent him in inter-agency meetings or occasionally meetings with outside parties to describe his views or to learn from them, to gather information to repeat back to him. It's part of my job to listen to what other people in the White House are saying, to, to meet with foreign leaders on occasion and to report those things back to him. It's my job to work with the White House staff, to be --to develop policy and to implement policy, anc to take that information and go back and explain that to the Vice President. Occasionally it's part of my job on his behalf to talk with the press and to relay his positions to the press if he so wishes or to other issues what the White House is doing. Q. Okay. And so in effect, you're an assistant both tc the President himself directly and to the Vice President himself? A. That is correct, sir. Q. And can you tell the Grand Jury what security clearance level you have? A. I have a TS, Top Secret, and a secure compartmentalized intelligence clearance, and clearances in FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 numbers of boxes along the way, numbers of compartmented ' intelligence. Q. Okay. And can you tell us in the course of your ldaily work how much contact you have with the intelligence community and how much access you have to classified A. Oh, I have a lot of access to classified documents. 11 meet every morning --my day usually starts at 7 o'clock in the morning, or sometimes a little earlier, and 1/11 get an intelligence briefing. 1/11 sit down with someone from the Agency, usually with the Vice President, and we have a book of intelligence that they provide with this, and he is there to answer questions from us and to take questions that we ask lback to the Agency and get us further information. That meeting usually goes 30, 45 minutes. I also receive the product from the Agency that morning which can be --I usually Iget a little extra, so it can be anywhere from 20 to 150 pages that I get every morning. Usually it's somewhere in the middle, 30, 40 pages. Then during the day I attend meetings and frequently the Deputy or one of the top officials from the Intelligence Agency will be at that meeting and will discuss policy issues, ~iberia, Haiti, Iraq, those sorts of things. I also will occasionally be part of a principals meeting where the Director of Central Intelligence is present. 1 FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 And during the day I will receive other written products from the Agency and go through those. Q. And just so we're crystal clear, I think it's obvious, but when you refer to the Agency, you're referring to the CIA? A. I'm sorry. Central Intelligence Agency. ( Q. And that's fine. You can keep referring to the Agency. I just want to make that, that clear. And do you, yourself, at times read the raw intelligence reports to see what1 s behind some oi the summaries that you're given? I A. Yes. I Q. And does the Vice President do that as well? I I A. Yes. Sometimes they're presented to us by the briefer and sometimes I will show him one that the briefer has shown me. I Q. And so is it, is it a practice with the people who are dealing with you on a regular basis to bring with them not just finished product but also to give you sometimes the raw documents behind that because of your interest in seeing them? I A. Occasionally. It's not all that common, but occasionally. Q. With what frequency do you have contact with the I press in your, in your job? I A. It, it goes in spurts. Usually there may be periods1 FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Deposit ions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 when I don't see them. You know, when a reporter is doing a profile of the Vice President, for example, they will call oul office. They, they call around to talk to kids he went to high school with, now they're no longer kids. They'll talk tc family members, they want to talk to people he works with, they'll talk to other Cabinet officials. And one of the people they often like to talk to is me because I work wihh him every day. And they'll say, you know, sit down and say, what's it like? Usually these contacts will come through our press person. We have a --I have an assistant who is charged with being in charge of relations with the press, and so we try and funnel most of those types of requests. In addition, 1/11 get calls from reporters about things that they're hearing. You know, we hear the President's going to make a trip or something. And they'll call me and usually 1/11 defer that to somebody else. And then sometimes I am charged to go talk to the press about an issue along the way. Q. And three questions. You mentioned there is someone on your staff who is charged with dealing with the press. And what is that person's name? A. Currently it's a person named Kevin Kellums. Before Kevin Kellums it was someone named Cathie Martin, Catherine Martin, I guess. And before that, it was Mary Matalin. Q. And at what point did Mary Matalin leave and did FREE STATE REPORTING, INC . Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 Catherine Martin take over, approximately? A. Well, Cathie worked as a Deputy to Mary before Mary left. I think Mary took us through the mid-term elections, so that would be November of 2002, and I think Mary left right about --sometime in that period. Maybe somewhere between then and the New Year, I think, and Catherine just sort of took over. Q. And you mentioned that sometimes you're charged with dealing with the press directly rather than through your press people. And who would tell you to do that? A. Well, Cathie would recommend it usually and then I would talk to them. Occasionally somebody from the press that I know and they'd call, but usually I would have to talk to Cathie. Q. And in your understanding, did you need to check with the Vice President in order to talk to the press and get authorization to talk -- A. I don't need to. Sometimes I do. Q. And have there been occasions when the Vice President has told you that you are to speak to the press rather than other people? A. Yes. Q. And when you deal with the press, what is your understanding of the ground rules of what they can do with the information you share with them? FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 I A. Well, there are different ground rules. There's on- Ithe-record, which means they can quote me by name in the I piece. So they can say, Lewis Libby said such-and-such. And then there are other gradations after that. One of them is background in which I think they --this varies by reporter actually, but it usually means, I think, that they can say --sometimes they call me a senior administration official, because they want to make their piece look important --so they'll say senior administration official said such-and-such. There's something called deep background, which ~usuallyJI think, means they just get to say it as if somebody 1said it but they doni t really tag it. Some people use that to 1 mean a government official, and sometimes these are actually negotiated, you know. The press person will sit down and say here's what you can say about it. And then there's something called off-the-record. When you talk off-the-record it is supposed to not ever be lrepeated by the reporter to anybody, including their editors. They're supposed to --it's something you tell them so they lcan get it in their head and it informs them as to what they can say, what they can ask about, but they're not supposed to lgo and repeat it to anybody, and they're not --certainly not Isupposed to write about it. Q. Okay. I 1 FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 A. They're not supposed to even call someone and say, you know, Libby told me in an off-the-record comment. They're not supposed to do that. Theyf re just supposed to say, you know, I'm wondering about this, what about this, without citing it to anyone. Sorry. Q. No. And let me see if I can illustrate that with ac example. You mentioned that people may call you to ask iŁ the President's going to be taking a trip. And if the President were in fact taking a trip next week, and you spoke to a reporter on-the-record, is it fair to say that the reporter could say Lewis Libby told, you know, this reporter, quote, the President will be taking a trip to England next week? Is that your understanding of on-the-record? A. That is on-the-record, although I might not confirm it for him, but I might say that's an NSC issue because it's the President traveling. But if I did say to him, the President is traveling, they could then say, Lewis Libby said. Q. And that would be if you had an on-the-record conversation? A. Correct, sir. Q. If you had a background conversation that said -- and it may be that this is a topic that you wouldn't discuss, traveling, just to use as a hypothetical, you said on background the President is traveling to England next week, they could write in the story, a senior administration FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 official said the President is traveling next week. Is that your understanding of -- A. Yes. Q. --on background? A. Yes. Q. And your understanding of deep background is that they could report in the story that, you know, the reporters have learned that the President is traveling to England next week, but not cite a senior administration official and certainly not quote you? A. Yes,sir. Q. And if it was deep background, the reporter could now know that the President was traveling to England next week, but they would not write that in the story, they could not tell their editors, but to the extent that they informed how they thought about the issues they were writing about, that information would be given to them on deep background. Is that your understanding? A. I thought you asked about deep background just before that. GRAND JUROR. Off-the-record. MR. FITZGERALD. Oh, off-the-record. Thank you. WITNESS. Off-the-record, they could, they could know it in their head but they couldn't call anybody, not just write about it. They couldn't call one of the other FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 government agencies and say, I understand that the President's taking a trip. They can just call --they might call up and say, you know, what's the President doing next week? But they're not supposed to refer to it to anybody. BY MR. FITZGERALD: I Q. Okay. So off-the-record is more even --more stringently controlled than deep background? A. Yes, sir. That's how I understand the terms. Q. okay. And do you have ground rules when you talk to 1 reporters about how they would verify any quotes they might attribute to you either as by name or by senior administration official? I A. Yes. A, the ground rules may be set in the beginning of the conversation or as the conversation goes I along sometimes you say to them, okay, this you can say on- the-record, and this you can't. This is for off-the-record or something else. Often when I deal with them, if you're asking about me personally, I often deal with a reporter and I say up front, everything I say in this conversation is off-the- record. If there's something I say that you would like to put into a question, or write into an article, call back, usually to Cathie Martin, or my press person, or Mary Matalin at that point, and she will then tell you if it's okay for you to use it or not. So usually I'm just strictly off-the-record. Q. Okay. And do you ever have the reporters call you I FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 1 back directly to verify a quote for something you gave them 2 on-the-record or on background? 3 A. It probably has happened over the course of three 4 years. It's not the normal, but it probably has happened. 5 Q. And in this case, one of the matters being focused 6 on in this investigation is a column written by Robert Novak 7 in July 14, 2003. I ,take it you're familiar with that column 8 as we sit here today? A. Yes, sir, I am. Q. And there's some information contained' in that I article concerning the employment --the alleged employment of l1 former Ambassador Wilson's wife at the CIA. Do you know that l2 1 fact that it's contained in the article? l3 1 A. Yes, sir, I know it's contained in the article. 1 Q. And were you a source for Mr. Novak about --in that article about the employment of Mr. Wilson's wife at the CIA? l6 A. No, sir. l7 1 I 18 Q. Were you a source for any information for Mr. Novak 19 in that article? 20 A. No, sir. 21 Q. Do you know if you spoke to Mr. Novak at or about 22 the time the article was prepared? 23 A. I have, I have a recollection that I did speak to 24 Mr. Novak once in that general time frame, but my notes 25 indicate, notes that you have, indicate to me that in fact FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 that was a week and a half or so after the article appeared. Q. Do you have any recollection of speaking to him before the article appeared? A. Maybe a year and a half before the article appeared, but not any time near the article. Q. And to the extent that the Grand Jury is familiar with the, quote, sixteen words, closed quote, that have caused controversy since then, were you involved in either the drafting or vetting of those sixteen words? A. No, sir, I don't think I was. It may have been in a draft that I saw, but I don't think so. Q. And there's a document known as the NIE, the FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 I National Intelligence Estimate, that concerned in part efforts by lraq to obtain uranium. Did you review the NIE at some point in 2002 or 2003 concerning Iraq and efforts to get uranium? Q. And do you recall whether or not there were any I 1 ldoubts expressed in the, in the NIE about the allegation that IIraq had tried to get uranium from Niger? 1 A. The NIE has a fairly clear declarative sentence in lthe section on uranium and Iraq, and it says something like, 1 Iran (sic) began vigorously trying to procure uranium, something like pretty close to that. And that is unqualified in the section on uranium. There are some sections towards the back, and I'm sorry I haven't reviewed the document, and I'd be happy to look at it if you like, there are some sections towards the back in which State Department expresses some doubts about uranium. I think it had to do with whether lor not someone could actually procure, actually get the 1 uranium as opposed to trying to get uranium, if you follow what I mean. And I think they had some doubts --well, that were unrelated about the rockets or the about the centrifuge tubes, whatever they proved to be. So that's my recollection. I could look at the document and tell you. But I recall that there was something in the back of the document, not in the section itself but way in the back. FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 Q. Okay. And do you know if that was --just going from memory, whether the part in the back was in text or in a footnote, do you remember? A. It's not a footnote in the sense that you or I use the term where there's a little --you know, a little --small little number six, and you go to the six at the bottom. I think it was in a blue box, if I recall, but I haven't looked at this in awhile. It might an appendix actually. I'm not sure if it was in the text or an appendix. Q. And for the record, the document is not in front of you so we're just asking you your memory. One clarification. In describing the NIE report you referenced Iran making efforts to get uranium. Did you mean to say Iraq? A. Excuse me. Q. Okay. Your testimony is --what your recollection is concerns Iraq, not Iran? A. My, my apologies. FREE STATE. REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 Q. Okay. Let me direct your attention then forward to May, 2003, and in particular to an article that appeared in the New York Times on May 6, 2003 written by an author named Kristof, K-r-i-s-t-o-f. Do you recall that article being published in or about that time? A. Idolsir. Q. And do you recall how you first learned of it? A. Someone came in and told me about it or I saw it flipping through the paper. I, I don't really recall. Q. And do you recall reading it at or about the time it was published? A. Yes. MR. FITZGERALD. And why don't we put a copy of that article front case need refer to it? 1 And for the' record, that is Grand Jury Exhibit 3. FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 BY MR. FITZGERALD: Q. And is it fair to say that in that article, the article is critical of the administration in terms'of stating that, for example, one quote, "It's disingenuous for the State Department people to say they were bamboozled because they knew about this for a year," close quote? I A. That sounds ,critical. I haven't seen anything -- one insider said? Q. Yes. A. Yes, so he is quoting somebody else, yes, sir. There is a not very nice statement in there. I Q. Okay. And is it fair to say that according to this article, the White House and State Department kept citing documents which proved to be a forgery? I A. Can you --you're asking me what's in the -- Q. Yeah, well, let me ask you. Do you remember whether or not --without reading it for a moment, whether this was an article that was very critical of the administration? I A. The article --the bulk of what they were saying in the article is critical. Yes, sir. I Q. And do you recall they're criticizing, according to the article, and I'm not saying this is true or false, but thel premise of the article was that the White House and the State Department had actual knowledge that documents that had been forged and kept citing them to the public, and that this was I FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 disingenuous on the part of the administration? A. I, I don't actually recall whether this article said, said that, but I don't dispute it. I just don't recall it. I haven't read it recently. Q. Do you recall any reaction that you had to the article when you read it at the time? A. Yes. I recall --can I just glance at it for one second? Q. Oh, yes. You can read --take a moment and read the whole article. A. I mean, my major reaction to this article had to do with this passage about being told that a person involved in the Niger caper more than a year ago --told the --the person involved in the caper, the caper more than a year ago said that the Vice President's Office asked for an investigation of the uranium deal. That, that, either at the time, or subsequently caught my eye. Q. And the article contends, for example, at a certain point, quote, "There are indications that the U.S. government souped up intelligence, leaned on spooks to change their conclusions and concealed contrary information to deceive people at home and around the world." Do you see that in the third paragraph? A. There are indications that the U.S. --yes, I see it. And that's not good stuff. FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 Q. And then the sixth paragraph, is that a reference tc what you were recalling, llI1rn told by a person involved in the Niger caper that more than a year ago the Vice President's Office asked for an investigation of the uranium deal, so a former U.S. ambassador to Africa was dispatched to Niger. In February, 2002, according to someone present at the meetings that envoy reported to the CIA and State Department that the information was unequivocally wrong and that the documents had been forged." Is that, is that what stuck in your mind about an allegation that the Office of Vice President had -- A. Right, because that had to do basically with us. I do recall that. Q. And who did you discuss this article with once you read it and saw that there were allegations that attacked the credibility of the President, the Vice President, State Department and basically the administration? A. I discussed it with my Deputy, probably discussed it with the Vice President. I don't specifically recall discussing this back then. The article was a little bit of a sleeper from my point of view in the sense that it came out, I noted it, I didn't pay much attention to it for a while, and then it sort of built momentum as it went along. So the day or two that it came out, I don't recall talking about it all that much except I talked to my Deputy about it. Q. And as you sit here today, you don't recall whether FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 or not you talked to the Vice President within a couple of days after the article came out? I A. I, I don't recall. It's --I don't recall. Q. And did the Kristof article, as you say, gain momentum over time? I A. Yes. Q. ' Okay. And can you tell us what happened as it gained momentum over time in terms of who you spoke to? I A. weil, the, the content of it sort of kept coming up. It didn't go away readily. At some point in ~une Walter Pincus was thinking --was doing --was calling our office, I calling probably Cathie Martin at that point, and wanted some --to ask questions about the article. Well, about the substance of it. And so Cathie talked to me about it at that point, and at some point around then 1, talked to the Vice President about how we would respond to this. I also talked to --at some point in this time frame I talked to our briefer, our Central Intelligence Agency briefer, to ask him if in fact we --he had any record of us asking about this, and I talked to the Vice President about that fact somewhere in there too. Q. And what's the name of your briefer? I A. Craig Schmall, at that point. Q. And do you know how to spell the last name? A. I think it's S-c-h-m-a-1-1. I FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 ,Q. And do you know if during this time between the * Kristof article in early May, and the Pincus article, which lwill eventually come out on June 12th, if you spoke to Marc Grossman from the State Department about the events described in the Kristof article? I I don't, I don't recall it. Secretary Grossman A- attends interagency meetings that I'm at, so I see him in that period, throughout that period probably once a week or more, but I don't recall a discussion with him about it. I Q. Do you recall if you ever asked Secretary Grossman lwhether or not the State Department had sent the former lambassador in response to a request from the Vice President? I A. The State Department had sent him? Q. Yes. A. No, I don't recall that. Q. And do you recall whether or not Mr. Grossman ever told you that he understands that Wilson was claiming that the l~ice President had sent him on this trip? A. That was the claim in the Kristof article, if I Irecall, but I don1 t recall Mr. Grossman repeating it, or saying that he knew it of his own --I just don't recall a 1conversation with Secretary Grossman about this. Q. And do you know --do you recall any conversation lwith Secretary Grossman about who was responsible for sending l~ilson on this trip to Niger? FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 I A. I, I don't recall a conversation with him about it. I Q. And do you know if you ever discussed with Secretary Grossman whether Wilson's wife worked at the CIA? ' A. No, I don't recall ever discussing that. Q. And is that something that you would remember if you I had that conversation? I, I don1 t recall the conversation. I, I just don1 t A. recall the conversation. Q. YO; mentioned that there came a time when you talked to the Vice President about Walter Pincusl article. And can you tell us who was present when you talked to him and what was said? A. I talked to him on the phone. I don't think it was anyone present when I spoke to him on the phone. He was relaying to me some information that he had learned in the first part of the conversation. And in the second part of the conversation he gave me instructions as to what I should, what - I should say to reporters, and from the time frame I'm pretty sure we were talking about --specifically about the Pincus article. Q. And why don't you tell us, first, what information the Vice President told you he had learned, and then what he told you to do with it? A. Okay. Well, I had some notes that I took down at Ithat point. But my best recollection sitting here is that he I FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 had been speaking to someone who was either from the CIA or it was someone who had spoken to someone from the CIA, and he wa: relaying to me what the CIA had said about how this came about. And it says something like --my notes about it say something like, he was sent at our request, our behest or something, and then it says something about it being a functional office. So he told me that, that they had said that the person was debriefed in the region, if I was --if I recall correctly, and that had made maybe --hadn't made a written report, made an oral report, but there was a report, something along those lines. There are notes of this which I think you all have. Then he switched --so he told me that. And in the course of describing this he also said to me in sort of an off-hand manner, as a curiosity, that his wife worked at the CIA, the person who --whoever this person was. There were no names at that stage so I didn't know Ambassador Wilson's name at that point, or the wife's name. And I made a note of that also. He then went on to say, here's what we'd like you to say to the reporters, I think it was Pincus, as I said before, and he gave me three points. The first point was that we did not request a mission to Niger. The second point, as I recall, was that we had not gotten a report back from the mission to Niger until --or we hadn't seen any such report until after the State of the Union, when these newspaper FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 articles started. And there was a third point which is * that --I think, was that he had seen the National Intelligence Estimate and that that's what he took to be authoritative. I think those were the points. I remember this from my notes more than actual recollection but I looked at the notes in connection with this inquiry. He then said tc make these several points and I asked him if he also wanted me to make an earlier point which he had made in the first half of the conversation, which I think I omitted to tell you, which was that the Office of the Vice President, the State Department and the --some other bureaucracy, maybe Defense Department, had asked questions about this --about an earlier report about Niger, that it wasn't just the Office of the Vice President asking questions. And I asked the Vice President -- I went ahead and numbered, I sort of numbered these as he was talking to me, and I remember numbering that one the fourth point and saying, do you want me to --excuse me, should we say, when I talk to the press that we were not the only office asking this question? And he quite rightly said, no, we shouldn't say that, that should be said by the Agency because we didn't know that. That was all we knew was what we had asked, and it would be better to get the State (sic) Department spokesperson, who at the time was I think Bill Harlow, to be the one who would say that to the press. And Ithat's about what I recall from the conversation, according to FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 the notes. \ Q. And we'll go through the notes in a moment. You just referred to Bill Harlow as the State Department I spokesperson. A. I mis-spoke, I'm sorry. Central Intelligence Agency spokesperson. Thank you. Q. Now, in --you referenced that you recall the Vice President told you something about a functional office. Can you explain what you understood a functional office to mean? I A. The State Department and the agency, to my understanding, have regional offices, that is an office which focuses in a given region of the world such as the Middle East or Europe. They also have some offices which look globally at a type of problem like proliferation. Maybe there's one for ecology or something, I don't know. But anyway, one of the -- a functional office, for instance on counterproliferation which is the one I think that was involved here, would have a global look at the problem. There might be a terrorism office, for example, that would look at terrorism globally. It would not be limited to Middle East or Southeast Asia, or Northeast Asia. Q. And did you understand, when he told you that this former ambassador's wife worked at the CIA, do you have an I understanding or whether or not she worked in that functional I office? FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 A. Well, that's interesting. I'd have to look at the note. I think --my recollection is that I knew she worked ir the function --is that the note indicates I knew 'she worked at the functional office. Q. And we'll come back to the note in a minute. Before we look at your actual notes, how certain are you from memory that the information about the wife working in the functional office at the CIA, the wife of this former ambassador, was information that Vice President Cheney imparted to you as opposed to information that you imparted to Vice President Cheney? A. Oh, I'm pretty certain of that. Q. And what makes you certain? A. I sort of remember him saying it, you know, in an off sort of curiosity sort of fashion. That's my recollectior of it anyway. Q. Okay. And since we weren't there -- A. And also since I wrote it down like that, it would indicate to me it was something I was taking down as he was speaking. Sometimes I make my notes as he speaks. Sometimes it turns out I didn't need to write it down, but I don't want to make him --you know, he is the Vice President. I don't want to make him take time to repeat himself, so I try and get some stuff and then if I figure it's not important, I can get rid of it later. FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 Q. And what was it about the way he discussed thatofact \ with' you that sticks in your mind or lets you know it was a curiosity or off-hand? . A. It came out of order. You know, he was going through the order, and as I recall, it came in later. And tone of voice, as I recall it. I think I'm recalling accurately. Q. And what, what was different about the tone of A. Sort of the way --it wasn't like the other tone of voices which was much more matter of fact and straight. It was just a little bit of a curiosity sort of thing. Q. And not to mince words, but when he was curious, was he curious about it in a sort of a negative way? Did he think that was sort of odd that a former ambassador's wife worked in the functional office at the CIA? A. I wouldn't say negative, but I would say it was a 1fact that, you know, it wasnl t --not everybody's wife works there, so it was a new fact, thatls all. Q. Did you take it --have any understanding whether or not Vice President Cheney thought that that fact might have played into his selection as the envoy for this trip? A. No, we didn't, we didn't discuss that. It was just --he just said what he said. Q. Did you take --get any indication from the Vice I I FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 President -- I \ A. You talking about in that conversation? Q. In that conversation. A. Yeah, I don't recall that. I Q. And any indication in that conversation that the I Vice President thought this might be sort of nepotism that she worked at the Counterproliferation Division and the envoy went Ion this trip? I I, I don't recall that. I A- Q. Now, let me --before I show you the notes, let me go back in time to a conversation you said you had with the briefer. A. With the what, I'm sorry? Q. With the briefer, Craig Schmall. A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you recall whether that took place before or after the conversation you just described with the Vice President? A. No, I think I have a date in my notes. I don't I I recall. Q. Okay. And was that an in-person meeting with the Ibriefer, your daily meeting? I A. I meet daily with him. Whether I passed this question to him in the briefing or over the phone, I'm not Isure. I FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 I Q. Okay. And do you know if the Vice President I participated in this conversation or not? I I A. I would think not. If it was, if it was in person. usually I don't take his time with questions. And my --so my guess is that I would either do it on the side or before he got there in the morning. I don't usually ask the briefer questions and make him sit there while I ask a question. So my recollection of it would be that normally I don't do it that way. Q. Okay. Let me show you a note that is Bates Stamped (either 2307 or 2921. And --1 MS. KEDIAN. 2307. MR. FITZGEFLALD. 2307 -- MS. KEDIAN. We're going to mark this as Exhibit I I BY MR. FITZGERALD: I Q. 1/11 ask you to look at that Exhibit, 51, and ask lyou if that's a note reflecting your conversation with the I briefer, Craig Schmall, about your inquiry, your question? A. Yes, sir. Q. And is that your handwriting? A. Yes,sir. Q. And a couple of things. This is the first one of your notes we're taking a look at. Is it fair to say that you lhave your own little shorthand? I FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 A. Yes, sir, my apologies. \ Q. And yourself, you refer to yourself as SL? A. Yes. Q. And you refer to the Vice President in your notes with a Y with a line on the top of it? A. Yes, sir. Q. And some of your notes have a date. Can you tell the Grand Jury what the date is of these notes? A. It looks like 6-9, June 9. Q. And also, you refer at times to OVP in your notes? A. Yes, sir. Q. And what does OVP mean? A. Office of the Vice President. Q. And before we get into the substance of this note, what do you do with these notes after you, after you write them? A. It depends. I have different types of notes that I treat differently. Q. These types of notes, what would you do with them? A. This type of note, looks like a note that I wrote to save --so I probably wrote down the note -- Q. I'm going to put a different document --I'm sorry --I'm sorry -- A. This looks like a note that I wrote to save, I wrote and put in some file or something. FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 Q. And any particular reason you would do that? I'm \ trying to understand which --what would cause you to write a note in your daily practice? A. Normally what I do is I, I have --as I say, I have different types of notes. One type of note I have are sort of action items that I'm going to take up with the Vice President that day. It may tend to look like a list and it can have anything on it, all sorts of different subject matters would be covered. So I could cover something --as my Chief of Staff job I may have something about his residence, you know, there's a leak in the roof. Or I might have something about Iraq, or I might have something about tax policy, or Congressional, or an old friend of his. So it's just anything that I need to talk with him about that day, and 1/11 put all those down. Those notes I tend to throw out. But if I --if there's something on there, written on there, that I think I need to save, I will copy that material or write it on a different sheet of paper and then save that page and then throw the other notes out so I don't have to struggle through all those old notes again. Q. So for example, putting aside any personal matters you might have, like fixing a leak in the house, if you had a discussion about an upcoming trip overseas and it was in your list of things to sort of cover with the Vice President, if you covered that topic with the Vice President, would you FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 cross it off? A. Usually. Q. And if you -- A. Or sometimes I cross it off if I didn't cover it, but I don't think it's worth covering. Sometimes I write them down and decide, ah, it's not worth bothering with. Sometimes I don't get to talk to him about everything and a day or two might pass when I didn't get to that point, and then I'll just cross if off, you know, it's no longer important to raise with him. So crossing off is my way of saying to myself, I don't have to read that line again. Q. Okay. A. More than --that he --than I have discussed it with him. Q. And if one of the things you do on a given day is I then have meetings with the Deputies or principals meetings, I will you take notes at those separate meetings? A. Yes. I Q. And will you keep those notes? I Q. And this is a note that you kept from June 9th, I 2003. Anything about the topic that made you want to keep the note for your file? A. Well, it was in the press at this point that we had purportedly made a request for this mission, and so I checked I FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 with my CIA briefer and he told me there was no OVP request about this, so I wrote down what he told me so I'd have a record of it in case I forgot and wanted to check, I'd have something to check. So -- Q. Okay. And just transliterating this note, it says, Craig --and that would be a reference to Craig Schmall? A. Correct. Q. It says, "No OVP request re uranium procurement." Is that your handwriting? A. Correct. Q. Is that what it says? A. Yes, sir. Q. And then above "uranium procurement" it says --is that year after yellowcake? A. No, that's Iraq and Africa yellowcake. Is that what you1 re asking? Q. Okay, yes. A. I apologize. I will apologize repeatedly today for my handwriting and my little symbols. Q. Okay, so that Q is Iraq? A. Yes, sir. Q. And the A -- A. It's an AFR for Africa. Q. Africa yellowcake? A. I think so. FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 Q. And then below it, it has a dash. Is that SL -*-is \ that Scooter Libby or the Vice President -- A. That's correct, yes. Q. And then below that it says, was DR request in 3-03? A. There was a --DR is Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, and that he apparently --according to Craig he had lmade a request in March of '03. I Q. And so does this indicate to you that it was on June 9th that you made the request for the briefer, Craig Schmall, Ito find out whether or not the Vice President's Office was I responsible for this request for a mission? A. Maybe. Let me --if I can explain? Q. Sure. I A. If I took this note directly, that would indicate it1 was on June 9. If, what I did, is I wrote this note down in my list of action items, then June 9 might be the date that the action item --the date of the listing in the action items. MR. FITZGERALD. Okay. Now, let me show you what is --we have the Bates Stamp No. 3079. MS. KEDIAN. And this will be marked Exhibit 52. I I BY MR. FITZGERALD: Q. And for the record, some of the copies we're showing you have an unusual marking at the top that's not an official classification which is being addressed, but I can assure you FREE STATE .REPORTING, INC . Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 there's no --nothing sensitive in here that the Grand Jury canrt see. So -- A. Thankyou, sir. Q. --that shouldn't be a distraction. Okay. And if you look at that document, is that also dated June, 9, '03? A. It may be one thing on this sheet actually which -- Q. Well, I'm not going to show it to anyone but you, We're not going to put it on the screen. A. Thankyou, sir. Q. Okay. A. Yes, it says June --6-9-03 and -- Q. And does this have Q next to June 9-03? A. Yes, it has what you probably think is a Q. Q. Okay, what is it? What is next --the thing that looks like a Q, what is it? A. It's a little symbol that means I may want to later come back and make a note about that. Q. Okay. And we're not going to talk about any of the entries other than those relating to -- A. Yes, that would be best, I think. Q. Okay. If you go down, the fourth entry, the fourth tick mark, do you see the same reference there, Craig -- A. Yes, I do, sir. Q. --no OVP request for uranium procurement? A. Yes, sir. FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 Q. And under that does it say, ttScootertl Libby or Vice President? A. Yes, sir. Q. And under that, was DR request in 3-03? Q. And above uranium procurement, what does it say above uranium procurement? A. I, I think it says --this one is less clear than I the other one. I think it's the symbol for Iraq, but I'm not sure, and Africa yellowcake. Q. Okay. And does that --looking at that entry, just that entry on the page, does that mirror the entry on the I document -- A. Yes, sir. Q. --Exhibit 51? A. This is one I copied over. MR. FITZGERALD. Okay. And we will deem marked but not put before the Grand Jury this page, and deem it as 52 for the record. We'll keep that separate so that the only entry that's in the record is that particular entry. BY MR. FITZGERALD: Q. And is there a reason you would copy it over onto the Exhibit 51 in exactly the same format with the --in terms I of indents and punctuation? A. Yeah, the indentsmean something tome. I mean, it I FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 tends to indicate to me --it's why I write on unlined paper. It tends to indicate to me something about how the content is in the order and what it means. Q. Okay. So looking at 51, does the Iraq or Africa I yellowcake written above the line have some relevance to -- the lines written above the line? A. I think it has to do with another re. And I think I what happened here was this was the first time I wrote it down probably and I wrote Africa yellowcake, and then I also wanted to make clear Iraq, so I put the Iraq. And as you'll see, l it's really trivial, and I apologize, but it's directly over I the re, and it shouldn't be, so I think I wrote that second. I think I wrote Africa yellowcake, and then I went back and put in the Iraq directly above the re on the, on the note I sheet. Q. And do you have a practice at times of taking things off the list of what's deemed marked 52 and recreating a separate sheet -- I A. Yes. I Q. --in the identical format? A. Yes, sir, because then normally I would discard the sheet. Q. And the sheet then being what has been deemed marked 1 A. Yes. The ones that are sort of action item lists I I FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 would normally discard when I was done with it after I had made sure to take down anything I thought --take down separately anything I thought I needed to keep. Q. Okay. And looking at June 9, '03, the first check on that item on that page, does that indicate the President was interested in the State of the Union and the Kristof article? A. Yes. Q. And do you recall what the occasion was that, that you came to learn that the President was interested in the Kristof article? A. I, I don't. It could be something that somebody said to me that I --it doesn't mean that I observed it. It may be something someone said to me and I wrote it down. Q. Any recollection of discussing with the Vice President the interest of the President in the Kristof article? A. I don't, I don't have a recollection of it. Q. Did you ever recall talking to the President himself about the Kristof article? A. No, I don't, I don't thinkso. Q. And do you ever recall Vice President Cheney talking to you about the President's interest in the Kristof article in particular? A. Specifically that? I don't, sir. The way this note FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 lis written, I take it to be something that someone told me that I wanted to mention to the Vice President, not something the Vice President said to me. Q. Okay. And do you have any recollection as to who would have told you that? A. No, sir. It could have been a senior staff meeting, it could have been 15,or 20 of us gathered. It could have lbeen somebody saying something. Q. Now, have you come to learn, back to 52, have you come to learn that there was a report prepared by the Bureau of Intelligence and Research at the State Department commonly known as INR on about June 10th of 2003? A. Yes, sir. The FBI told me about it. Q. Okay. And when you say the FBI told you about that, that would be some time after October 1st of 2003 when the investigation began? A. Yestsir. Q. Prior to that time had you ever heard of the lexistence of an INR report concerning the trip to Niger and I the role played by former ambassador Wilson? A. Yestsir. Q. Okay. And tell us how you learned of it. 1I A. At the end of September there was a meeting in the I situation Room underneath the White House, Classified Meeting I ~oom,and it was a very long meeting that covered several I FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 subjects. Towards the end of the meeting, we were in a very small group which included the Secretary of State, and the Secretary of State in that meeting alluded to the fact that there was a memo from the State Department --so this was like September, late September of '03, that there was a memo from the State Department written much, much earlier which talked about a meeting in which this assignment came about, I guess the origins of the assignment, Ambassador Wilson's assignment. Q. And was that --did that meeting in the Situation Room occur at a time after the investigation had become public in the Washington Post? A. I --if I recall, it became public in the Post on September 28 or so? Q. Yes. A. Is that correct? So it was a couple days after that. Q. Prior to Secretary Powell mentioning that document, had you ever heard of the existence of the INR report prior to that date? A. I don't have any recollection of an INR document prior to that date. Q. And do you recall going back to June loth, assuming the document --have you, have you since read that document by the way? A. No. No, sir. It was handed to me --during my FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 interview with the FBI and my lawyer said, if you haven't- read \ the'document,you shouldn't read it now, and so I gave it back. Q. Okay. When looking at the document did it look like lsomething you had read before in the brief time that you had it? A. No, sir. Q. And did it --do you recall during the time period prior to June 10th ever asking Secretary Grossman questions about what role, if any, the 0ffic.e of Vice President had played in causing this mission, this trip to Niger by the former ambassador? A. I --you referred to this before. I really don't recall a discussion with Secretary Grossman, who is from the State Department. And my understanding was that it was the Central Intelligence Agency mission and so I don't, I don't recall a discussion with him about whether the State Department had a role in it. Q. And --but you did understand the person who went was a former ambassador? A. Yes, sir. Q. And in the Kristof article, there was a claim that the former ambassador reported to the State Department what his findings were. Correct? A. Actually, I had forgotten that. Maybe that was on FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 my mind at the time. Q. As you sit here today do you know whether or not yo^ ever spoke to Secretary Grossman about having him find out information about what caused this former ambassador to be sent to Niger? A. I don't recall it. Q. Do you know if you spoke to anyone else at the State Department about that, about that question of who was responsible for sending Ambassador Wilson to Niger? A. I don't recall a discussion with people from the State Department about it. Q. And do you recall discussing it with anyone else at that time, any other agency? A. Well, the discussion with Craig Schmall, and I, I may have tried to speak to --I tried to speak at some point during this period to John McLaughlin who is the Deputy at the Central Intelligence Agency which would have been the people to send him. Again, during an interview with the FBI agents they raised an incident which I spoke to Bob Grenier who works for McLaughlin, or is a Deputy for McLaughlin, for John McLaughlin. And I don't --I recall talking to Bob Grenier about something and it could have been this inquiry, but I don' t, I donf t really recall the discussion in detail. Q. And do you recall ever having a discussion with Marc Grossman before, during or after a Deputy's Committee Meeting FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 where Marc Grossman told you that he had learned the former s\ amb&sadorfs wife had worked at the CIA in the Counterproliferation Division? A. No, I don't. Q. Do you recall any conversation at any time when Secretary Grossman told you that the former ambassador's wife worked at the CIA? A. I, I doni t recall. Q. You have no memory of that whatsoever? A. Sorry, sir, I don't. MR. FITZGERALD. Now, why don't we look at the notes from your, from your conversation with Vice President Cheney, and I think their page references are Bates Stamp No. 2919 or -- MS. KEDIAN. This has previously been marked as Exhibit 6. BY MR. FITZGERALD: Q. Okay. And is this a note, is this a note you referred to as -- A. Yes, sir. Q. --your notes of the conversation? A. Yes, sir. Q. And starting in the upper left corner it has a date. 24 What do you read the date to be? I1 A. Well, it's a little --it gets a little confused. 11 FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 read it to be 6-12-03, but over the 12 is a symbol that I-use \ which means that I dont t know that it's a 12. It's on or about the 12th, or it's a guess basically. MR. FITZGERALD. Okay. And we might --do we have the original document here? MS. KEDIAN. We do. BY MR. FITZGERALD: Q. Oh. But looking ahead to --what's the first entry to the right of the date? A. A "T" for telephone. Q. And then what is the --why don't you interpret for us what the first line says? I A. It says that I was --this, this was a note that I took after I took the note, sometime after I took the note, and it's putting down that this was a note of a phone call between me and the Vice President about uranium and Iraq, the l~ristof New York Times article. Q. And then continue down to the next entry which seems to have something written before the parenthesis? And we'll put in front of you the original document. A. Yes, it's just a bullet -- Q. Okay. A. --that's before it. What happened with this document is I wrote the --I took the note without the heading is my recollection. And I went back later and added that FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 heading -- MR. FITZGERALD. Well, why don't we turn that off for the moment -- MS. KEDIAN. Okay. WITNESS. Sorry. I MR. FITZGERALD. --because I don't want you to look up. WITNESS. So I took the note without this, this heading on --about the telephone and what it was. I made I this up later is my recollection of it. And so the note for some time read just like that, without the top line. And I went back later and added the top line when I came across the note. And that's my recollection anyway. I And what, what it says after that is, I am writing down here something that the Vice President had told me someone had told him, although it doesn't reflect that which he usually would, that's what this is. And it says, took place at our behest, dash, functional office. And then -- BY MR. FITZGERALD: Q. Go ahead, I 'm sorry. A. And then below that it says, debriefing took place here, meaning D.C., I assume. And then it says, and there was a meeting in the region. And then initially when I first wrote it, this four was not, was not there, and the box was I not there. I wrote down OVP and Defense and State expressed 1 FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 strong interest in issue. Q. Okay. A. And at some point, as I recall, I went and --from the spacing, esoteric, but from the spacing I, I recall that I went back and wrote in, because at some point, I think after he initially said it, he told me, I guess Counterproliferation,,whichI think the CP is, and then his wife works in that division. Q. okay. A. And then he switched from debriefing mk about what someone had told him to giving me the points that he thought I should make in talking to the press. Q. Okay. A. And he said, didn't know about the mission, didn't get a report back, oh, and didn't have any indication of a forgery. This is a mixed line. Didn't have an indication of a forgery, was from CIEA. I guess I had --it should say, didn't have any indication of a forgery until the IAEA or the first indication of a forgery was from the IAEA, but I just mixed it up when I was writing it. I Q. Okay. And then above the three ticks down below, one, two and three -- A. Uh-hum. Q. --there's something crossed out. Do you know what that says? I FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 A. Idonrt. Q. Now, you mentioned that at first you didn't write four, or put it around the brackets -- A. Yes. Q---but on the day of this conversation did you put the brackets and the four around it -- A. Yes. Q . --at some point? A. Yes. Q. And was that because you were suggesting that in addition to the three points dictated below that the Vice President wanted you to make, that you might also want to make the fourth point? A. Yes, sir. Q. Okay. And then the arrow next to it attributes something to the Vice President. If you could tell us what that says? A. It says, hold, get the Agency to answer that. So as he went through his points I made these notes, one, two and three to clarify in my mind what it was I was doing, and then I wrote down point four and suggested should I also --or said, should I also say OVP, and Defense and State --it wasn't just us, it was several offices asking about this? And he quite rightly said, no, you should get the Agency to say that. FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 I Q. Okay. Looking back up at the top, do you know what I was under the 12 when you wrote it in terms of --is the two correcting something, if you can tell? A. I might have written 18 and then switched it to 12 lwhen I realized it wasn't the 18th. That's a guess. I I can't really tell without a microscope or something. Q. Okay. And forgetting the top line which starts with June 12th, '03 and ends with New York Times article -- A. Yes. Q. --is there anything below that other than stamps and Bates Stamps No., but all the blue ink below that, that lwas written during the conversation that you had with the Vice I I President? A. Yes, sir, I think so. Q. And that was a telephone, telephone conversation? A. Correct, sir. Q. And does that --do you know whether you were in the White House at the time? A. I don't, sir. Q. Do you know whether the Vice President was in the I I White House at the time? A. I don' t, sir. Q. Okay. And as far as the top line goes, aside from the correction to the date, where it says, telephone, Vice l~resident re uranium and Iraq, Kristof, New York Times I FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 article, do you know when that was put on the page in blue ink? A. I think I wrote it at the same time that' I, I did, lat least the first of the dates -- I Q. Okay. And do you know whether that was during the I I conversation or at a later time? A. No, I think that was a later time. Q. And do you know how much later? I I A. I don't. My --I have a --my recollection of it is I came across the note which because it was in the middle of a conversation I didn't take the time to write the heading, and then I used it, set it aside, and then I came back to it. And when I came back to it, I realized there was no heading on it. I I didn't want to have to puzzle out twice what it was, so I lwrote a header on it. I Q. Okay. And so do you know if that was added in June, I I July, August, September or October? A. I don't know. It might have been in June but I don't know. Q. Okay. And do you know, was this added before or after the investigation began? A. I think it was before the investigation began. Q. Do you know if you --did you add anything in terms of notes, the dates or what it concerned when there was a request to review documents? Did you go back and add FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 anything? I A. No, I donlt think so. Q. So to the best of your recollection, this would have I been added, the entry date, some time after your conversation with Vice President Cheney but before this investigation began? A. Yes, sir. Q. And do you know if you went back and reviewed it I again to change the date from June whatever it was to June 12th? A. I'm sorry? Q. Do you know what, what caused you to go back and review the date and change it? A. I think what happened was I initially wrote it and then realized that wasn't the right date and that it would be inaccurate because this was for my discussion with Pincus and the Pincus discussion was before his article. So the one thing I think I know about June 12 was that it wasn't the 12th because the article appeared on the 12th, and it would have been before that. Q. And so this was a conversation you had with Vice President Cheney in the context of figuring out what to say to Mr. Pincus who was writing a piece following up on the Kristof article? A. It was, it was to prepare to say something to the I FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 press and I think it was with Pincus in mind. Yes, sir. Q. And as you sit here today, is it possible that you're the person who had learned that the former ambassador's wife had worked in the functional office in Counterproliferation and that you had told Vice President Cheney that on this date? A. I don't think so, sir. Q. And is that from your --first of all, is that based upon your memory? A. Yes, sir. Q. And anything about the document that would indicate that it was Vice President Cheney who told you the information rather than the other way around? A. Well, the way the, the way the line is drawn, and then it doesn't say SL saying this, it looks like him saying it. I wouldn't normally write down something I said because I said it. I don't I wouldn't need to. Q. Okay, so the -- A. So I think in this case, usually when I wrote something down that I say, I put SL colon, and then the statement. So I was hurried here because I was trying to not hold him up and get down everything that he said accurately, and I think that's what he said. And I, and I have this recollection of him saying it, so -- Q. And you have --and your recollection about that was FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 that he said it in a --how would you describe -- A. Offhand, sort of curious, curiosity-type manner. I Q. fact? And did you respond in any way to that, to that 1 A. I don't think so. Q. What did you think of that fact at the time? A. Curiosity. , Doesn't --might mean nothing, might I 1 mean something, I don't know. Q. ~nddo you know if on or about June 12th Marc Grossman from the State Department had had a conversation with 1 you about Wilson's wife working at the CIA? A. I don't recall anything about a Grossman conversation, sir. 1 Q. And do you recall if you ever had a conversation with Mr. Grenier in which you discussed Wilson's wife's employment? A. I don't think I discussed Wilson's wife's employment Iwith, with Mr. Grenier. I think if I discussed something it 1 was what they knew about the request about Mr., about Mr. I Wilson. I don't recall the content of the discussion. Q. And do you recall if there was an urgency to the Iconversation when you spoke to Mr. Grenier? 1 A. I recall that I was reaching Mr. Grenier --I was trying to reach Mr. McLaughlin and couldn't, and spoke instead to Mr. Grenier. And so if I did that instead of just waiting FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 for Mr. McLaughlin, it was probably something that was urgent I in the sense that my boss, the Vice President, wanted, wanted to find something out. Not, not necessarily in the real I world, but he wanted an answer and usually we try and get him the answer when we can. Q. So it is fair to say in looking at the document that the three points the Vice President wanted you to make were I that --he didn't know about the mission, there wasn't a report given back, you need to look at the -- I A. Thank you. Sorry. Q. That he didn't know, the Vice President didn't know about the mission, that the Vice President's Office didn't receive a report back, and that there wasn't an indication I that the documents were a forgery until the IAEA so indicated? A. Yes, sir. Q. And that your suggestion that you pointed out the trip took place at the behest of other agencies as well was, I was rebuffed by the Vice President who thought the better course was to have the Agency, CIA, come out and say that I themselves? A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, did you talk to Mr. Pincus at the Washington I Post? I A. Yes, sir, I did. I Q. And did you talk to him prior to the article on ~unel FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 12th? \ A. Yes, sir, I did. Q. And do you recall what you told him? A. I told him that I didn't --that the Vice President didn't request the mission. I think I told him that we did not get a report back from the mission. And I assume from this note that I also told him about the IAEA. There is an article which eventually comes out. Looking at that might refresh me about whether I told him other things but -- MR. FITZGERALD. Okay. Why don't we get out the June 12th Pincus article. MS. KEDIAN. That's part of Exhibit 3. BY MR. FITZGERALD: Q. Let me take a moment and read the article and see if it refreshes your recollection as to anything else that you may have told Mr. Pincus. GRAND JUROR. Since it's almost noon, is this line of questioning going to take much longer? MR. FITZGERALD. No, we'll wrap it up shortly in time for lunch. WITNESS. I don't mean to hold everybody up, but there is a part where he talks about us --do you know where that is in the article? BY MR. FITZGERALD: Q. No, but why don't we just take a moment and read, FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 read the article just to see if anything else rings a bell. A. My, my apologies. (long pause) I don't know where he --we could be the source for some of this, I don't know if I --it doesn't refresh me as to what I said to him. Q. Okay. Can we just --two questions. In there it indicates in one paragraph, "Cheney and his staff continue to get intelligence on the matter but the Vice President, unlike other senior administration officials, never mentions it in a public speech." Do you know if you told that to Pincus or not? A. I might have. It's, it's true, he did not talk about it in a speech. The "Continue to get intelligence on the matter" is causing me to stumble a little bit in that I don't, I don't think after --a few days after --it was the Vice President who asked the question, and a few days after he asked it, we got sort of a temporary answer from the Agency. And then I don't, I don't know that we got anything until the l~ational Intelligence Estimate came out which had a very I definitive statement, that they had begun to buy uranium. So I don't when it says "on the matter," I don't know that we got anything more about Ambassador Wilson's trip, not at my level in any case, or the Vice President's level. There was continued intelligence about Iraq and uranium, so that looks llike phrasing that -- lhave said it anyway. it doesn't look like the way I would II FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 Q. Okay. And the last question is, the next sentence, \ do you know who the source for the quote --source for the information that says, "he and his staff did not learn of its role in spurring the mission until it was disclosed by New York Times columnist Nicholas Kristof on May 6th --" I A. Yes. Q. II --according to an administration official --" A. That, that could be me, which would be consistent with the first of my bullets, that I didn't know, we didn't know about the mission and we didn't in fact know that we had had a role in it because it was the CIA' initiative it turns out, and that could have been --I could have said that to I I MR. FITZGERALD. Okay. Why don't we break for lunch. GRAND JUROR. We'll be back at 1 o'clock. MR. FITZGERALD. Okay, 1 o'clock. GRAND JUROR. Thank you. I MR. FITZGERALD. You can step outside, and wait at I the door, and we'll take care of the documents, and we'll just come back at 1 o'clock. Thank you. WITNESS. Thank you. I (Whereupon, the witness was excused at 12:02 p.m.) (Whereupon, the witness was recalled at 1 :15 p.m. ) GRAND JUROR. I'll remind you, you're still under I FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 oath. '\ WITNESS. Thank you. BY MR. FITZGERALD: I Q. Mr. Libby, I mis-spoke when I invited you back in. In your conversations with Mr. Pincus prior to the June 12th article, did you understand from, from your I conversation with Vice President Cheney whether or not there was any problem with you telling Mr. Pincus that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA? A. No, he was not telling me to mention that part and I didn't understand that to be part of what I was supposed to talk to Mr. Pincus about. Q. And did you think there was a reason you couldn't tell Mr. Pincus that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA? I A. No, it just wasn't a particularly powerful point compared to the other points. I didn't understand it to be a point worth mentioning in that context. Q. The Vice President obviously thought it was I important enough to share with you, or interesting enough to color the background. Fair enough? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you thought it interesting enough to write in 1 your notes. Correct? I A. Just a slight emendation of that. I --as I said, I often take my notes as he1 s speaking because I don1 t know what I1 FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 is going to later be important. So I took the note because he was saying it. But it was not a point that I even considered \ as something that I was going to be discussing with Mr. Pincus. Q. And when you wrote your note it was something that you recalled as sort of the change of tone when the Vice President told you about it as being curious. Fair, fair to say? A. Yestsir. Q. And did you think that might help elucidate Mr. Pincus' view of what had happened here? A. It was not one of the points he was giving me to, to discuss with Pincus and the points with Pincus seemed on their face directly in line sufficient and that's, that's what I did. So that's, that's what I covered with Mr. Pincus. Q. Did you limit yourself to the four corners of exactly what was written in the three bullet points in your notes when you spoke to Mr. Pincus? A. Within the boundaries of that pretty much, I think. Q. Did you consider there to be any sort of prohibition when you're just discussing the fact that the ambassador's wife worked at the CIA when you spoke to Mr. Pincus? A. No, sir. Q. And in terms of telling the story to you in context, the Vice President referenced that fact in telling you. Did FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 you pee any reason why you shouldn't reference that fact in giving the context to Mr. Pincus? A. No, sir. Q. Do you know if you talked to Mr. Pincus about Wilson' s wife? A. No, I, I believe I didnot, sir. Q. Can you rule out the possibility that you told Mr. Pincus about Wilson's wife during that conversation? A. I have no recollection of having discussed it with Mr. Pincus and I don't think I did. Q. Can you rule out the possibility that you did, in Iyour mind? A. I don1 t think I did. Q. And I understand that it's very clear that you don't think you did. I'm just saying, can you rule out that you didn't do that when you spoke to Mr. Pincus? A. I don't quite know what to say, sir. I don't think I did. I have no recollection of doing it. It's not what I Iset out do. I don't believe I did. Just "rule out the I possibility" is an odd phrasing to me. I'm, I'm reasonably certain I did not. Q. Let me give you an example. The President of the l~nited States called you in and said, this is super-super I lsecret that we can't even tell you the clearance level this is( lat, and this involves the most sensitive intelligence I FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 gathering matters ever to be conducted by the United States. ~ ,\ And lyou went and had a meeting with a reporter afterwards, and we said, do you recall telling that person that information. YOU could say, not only do I not remember, there's no way I I could have done that. And I guess, now I'm asking you here, you indicate that the information about Wilson's wife you didn't understand to be a prohibition on it. So I'm simply I asking that, even though you think you didn't talk with Pincus about it, is it possible that you did? 1 A. Well, I didn't think it was under the super-super I secret categorization. So in that part of the analogy. it was1 nothing like that about what he said. But as I say, I don't think I talked to Mr. Pincus about it. Q. Is it possible you did? I A. Best of my recollection of the conversation, no. I did not talk to him about it. Q. Now, this conversation you had with the Vice I President was prior to your speaking to Mr. Pincus. Correct? The conversation -- A. Yes. Yes, sir. I Q. And you spoke to Mr. Pincus before he printed the I June 12th article? A. Yes, sir. I Q. So the conversation with the Vice President was some time before June 12th. Correct? FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 A. Yes, sir. Q. And was that the first time you had heard from anyone, as far as you can recall, that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you have a recollection of this being a new fact as you heard it? A. Yesfsir. Q. And so that based upon your recollection, not your notes, that you recall that that's the first time that you heard about the former ambassador's wife working at the CIA? A. Yes, sir, although my recollection is not perfect. That was my recollection. MR. FITZGERALD. Now, if I could show you a document that Ms. Kedian will tell us what it's marked -- MS. KEDIAN. Grand Jury Exhibit 53. BY MR. FITZGERALD: Q. And again we will deem it marked, but not make it -- just make the full text available to you, and then if we need to show it to the Grand Jury at some point, we'll redact it. Are those notes that you made? A. Yes, sir. Q. And are they dated June 3rd, at least in the upper left corner of the page? A. Yes, sir. FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 Q. Okay. And do they indicate that one of the things that's on this --is this the notes that consist of your things to do with the Vice President that you'make each day? A. I have things to do with the Vice President and I have things to do on my own. This is probably things to do with the Vice president, but they look alike, they look alike. Q. Okay. 1/11point you to one entry. A. Yestsir. Q. It says on there, talk to VP about alter Pincus article. A. Yes,sir. Q. Does that indicate to you that --at least as of June 3rd, you had a note to yourself that you should talk to the Vice President about the article that Walter Pincus was preparing to write? A. Not quite, sir. It indicates to me I was going to talk to him about a Walter Pincus article. But there could have been a prior Walter Pincus article that said something -- There were Walter Pincus articles in May, towards the end of May, and it could be that what I want to talk to him about is something that was in a prior article. It, it, it could mean, but it doesn't necessarily mean, the article that he was preparing for June 12th, that eventually appears on June 12. Q. Okay. Did you, between June 3rd and June 12th, did FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 you talk to Walter Pincus to provide information as regards I any article other than the June 12th piece he wrote? A. No. But this mark here might just be something that I in an article --if we were to go back and look at his I articles before June 12th, I might see something that, that I --caught my eye back then and I wanted to talk to the Vice President about. Q. Right. And I understand. The bracket is -- I A. I did not talk to Walter Pincus about any I drafting --his drafting any other article. Q. So this item refers to talking to the Vice President, looking forward to the article that would appear on I June 12th or refers to something that had appeared before June I 3rd that was already written and published that you wanted to call the Vice President's attention to or discuss? I A. Yes, sir. Q. And as you sit here today, I realize it's awhile 1 back, do you know if this --does Pincus --does an article by Pincus prior to June 3rd stick in your mind? A. There were some articles by Pincus in May, towards the end of May, third week, fourth week of May where Director Tenet was talking about the intelligence from the war, it's is my recollection anyway. So there are some articles from I Pincus, you know, he writes periodically and there were some 1 articles from Pincus in that period. But I don't know what FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 this refers to. Q. Okay. And as you look at this entry now, do you have a belief as to whether or not this was looking backward to a past article, or looking forward, or you don't know? A. I don't know. My recollection is that the Pincus article was around for awhile. When I say that I mean to say that I had heard from Cathie or someone that he was doing &hi: article for awhile is my sense of it. So it could be either. Q. And now, there came a time --did there come a time when you spoke to a David Sanger of the New York Times? A. Yes, sir. Q. Okay. And did you speak to him in early July? A. From reviewing my notes I have seen that it was Jull 2nd. Q. Okay. And independent of your notes fixing a date, do you have an independent recollection of sitting down with Mr. Sanger and speaking to him? A. Very vague actually, but yes, I have some recollection. Q. Did you meet with him in person or did you speakby telephone? A. In person and he had someone with him as I recall. Q. Do you know if it would be James Risen, R-i-s-e-n? A. Yeah, I think that sounds right. From my notes that sounds right. FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 Q. Okay. And had you ever sat down with David Sanger before? A. Yes, he was at a dinner I was at. It's 'not a common occurrence for me but I had met him before. I Q. Was that the first time you sat down with him as an official source for an article? A. It's not common for me to sit with him. It could be the very first, I'm not sure. Q. ~nddo you recall from your discussion with Mr. Sanger if you had any conversation about ~mbassador Wilson, I either by name or by description as the former ambassador, or I his wife in that meeting? A. I don't. I have looked --we have some notes of that conversation, and in looking through the notes of it, I don't recall anything about the wife. I can't recall if there's anything about, about, about the Ambassador Wilson trip as I sit here, but it would be in the notes. I I recall that he was --my impression is that he was primarily interested in the Colin Powell presentation, the presentation of Secretary Colin Powell had made to the U.N. in February of '03. Q. And did you provide him information about your recollection of how the Colin Powell presentation was put together? A. Yes, sir, that's my recollection of it. FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 7 3 Q. And have you looked since that time at an article on \ July 8th by David Sanger? A. I suspect I did. I don1 t recall it. Q. In that article the relevant sentence I wanted to -- sentences I wanted to call to your attention. Let me pull out a copy. One indicated that Wilson had said that he reported back, that the intelligence was likely fraudulent, indicating that the intelligence by Iraq trying to get uranium, and it said, White House officials say his warning never reached them. Do you know if you would have provided information to David Sanger indicating that the warning by Wilson never reached the White House? A. I, I actually --I don't know that Ambassador Wilson actually warned that the documents were fraudulent. There is, to my knowledge, all I had seen was one memorandum which may or may not still be classified in which is a report about Ambassador Wilson's trip. And in that report --may I continue? Q. Sure. A. In that report there are denials from the Niger government --this is actually in Director Tenet's July 11th statement about it, there are --public statement so it's not classified --there are denials in the first part of the report from the Niger government that they ever provided uranium. But there is also an assertion from a former FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 Nigerian, I think prime minister, that in fact an Iraqi I delegation had come to Niger seeking to open relations and thf Niger government, the prime minister, interpreted that to meal they were interested in purchasing uranium. So in fact, within Ambassador Wilson's --within the report of Ambassador Wilson's trip and his finding was evidence that Iraq was trying to acquire uranium and that's what the CIA eventuaLly puts into the NIE which is also unclassified now. As to the fraudulence of the documents, I don't think Ambassador Wilson as I have seen later, had ever actually seen the documents. I don't know if he opined on whether they were fraudulent or not. Q. Let me draw your attention ahead to July 6th -- A. Yes, sir. Q --when three things happen. First, there is the Op-ed in the New York Times by Joseph Wilson. Secondly, he appears on Meet the Press with Andrea Mitchell as the host. And third, there's a piece in the Washington Post talking about his Op-ed in the New York Times and giving some further information. Do you recall which of those two articles you read that day and whether or not you saw Wilson on Meet the Press? A. I don't think I saw Wilson on Meet the Press with Andrea Mitchell on cable, you know, on television. I don't know if I read the articles that day. It was Sunday and often FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301)261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 I take the day off, but I think I read them --I read them subsequently. Q. And what was your reaction when you reads the Op-ed piece by Joseph Wilson? A. I recall that it was, you know --here was this guy saying it was him who had done it. He was saying that we had --he was saying that, that he thought that he had sort 01 definitively proven in his trip that there was no attempt by the Iraqis to purchase uranium in Niger. And that's not what his report actually proved. He was saying that we had asked for the trip, or he said that the next day on television, I've forgotten which, and that was not the case. He was saying that because we had asked about the trip, the Vice President must have gotten a report back about his trip and that was not the case. He was saying, because his report was definitive, which it wasn't, and because the Vice President had asked, which he hadn't, the Vice President must have gotten a response, which would have convinced the Vice President that, that Iraq had not tried to buy uranium, and therefore the Vice President must have twisted the facts, or other people must have twisted the facts. And as I was indicating, the premises were wrong, we didn't get his report. What we did get was intelligence from the CIA, not that one piece but the considered judgment of the CIA that in fact Iraq had tried to buy uranium. The Vice President had not asked for someone to FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 go on a mission to Niger, so therefore he didn't get that, \ report back. So there were a lot of things in there that wer wrong. There was a place later in his article where he said, if I'm wrong about my report, if they discounted my report fc some reason, then I have no complaint, although I'd be interested in knowing why they say that. And that made me hopeful that when it was explained to him that in fact his report didn't disprove it, and the CIA took his --did not find his bit of intelligence as definitive, you know, we lthought that that was hope that he'd then withdraw his accusation. I Q. Now, is it fair to say that the article was viewed as an accusation by many, including the administration? A. Yes, sir. Q. If you accepted the premises of his article, his Op ed, as being true, it would indicate that the Vice President knowingly allowed the President to lie to the American public and the world about what the United States government believec labout Iraq's activities with regard to uranium. Fair to say? I A. Not quite. Because he, he is straight forward in saying, all I know about is my report. And if they have other, other evidence then there's other evidence. But if they're relying on my report, then it's not, you know --then it would be improper to say what he said assuming my report is Iright, but it may not be. That's what he said. FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 Q. But it's fair to say that most people took away, fror \ that article as reported as an assertion by Wilson that the government misled the American people, not as a I'm not sure what happened and I want an answer? Is that fair to say? A. I, I don't --if you look at his article, I think he does say in there, I may --if there's other information, there's other information, he was pretty careful about that. Maybe people read it too quickly, as you say, and took away a different interpretation of it. MR. FITZGERALD. Sure. Why don't I give you a copy, which is Exhibit -- MS. KEDIAN. Three. MR. FITZGERALD. --3. And does it start with Joseph C. Wilson --oh, this is the Washington Post. Do we have the Op-ed piece? MS. KEDIAN. Yes, I'm sorry. MR. FITZGERALD. Are you reading the New York Times or -- MS. KEDIAN. I 'm sorry, I handed you -- WITNESS. I have a July 6 New York Times piece. MR. FITZGERALD. Oh, then you can keep reading. 1/11 read the same thing you're reading. BY MR. FITZGERALD: Q. Doesn't the second paragraph say, "Based on my experience with the administration in the months leading up to FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 the war I have little choice but to conclude that some of the intelligence related to Iraq's nuclear weapons program was twisted to exaggerate the Iraqi threat." A. Right, some, "some of the intelligence," yeah. Q. Are you, are you telling me --well, what was your reaction when you read this article? Were you angry? A. It's a, it's a bad article. And I don't mean to, pick words with you. I'm just saying, within his article, as we go on, he does say that all he knows about it is what he knows about so -- Q. Well, let me ask you -- A. Just giving him credit for that. I'm trying to give him credit for that. Q. Were you angry were you read the article? A. Yes, because --well, angry? I was concerned because it didn't seem to me an accurate portrayal of the facts. But I was also confident that when the facts came out it would be --you know, it's, it's hard to counter a false accusation even with clear facts. But I was confident that the facts were quite clear, that in fact his cable was not definitive, that we had not asked for the report, that the report did not in fact reach the Vice President or me prior to the State of the Union, and we were not the people who were putting it into the claim. So the underlying facts I thought were quite solid, saying this was wrong, but it's disturbing FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 to h~ve something like this out there. I Q. Was it fair to say you were upset when you read the article? A. There were a lot of articles to come out that, l that say bad things about the administration and I guess I've gotten a little bit inured, inured to them. But I didn't like --I did not like the article. Q. Were you upset? I A. I guess I was upset. I was disturbed by the I article, didn't like the article. Upset's a fair word, I guess. I Q. And did you discuss it with the Vice President? A. Yes. I Q. Were you uncertain -- I A. I'm just trying to think about when. See, he was in --I didn't discuss it when I first got it, but I'm sure I did shortly thereafter. He was in Wyoming, I think, over the July 4 weekend. So I probably didn't see him until, you know, Monday or Tuesday, I've forgotten when it was, after that, and l I would have discussed it shortly thereafter. I didn't see I him on --if I read it on Sunday, I did not see him on Sunday. Q. Do you know if you discussed it by telephone with Vice President Cheney? I A. I don't think I spoke to him by phone that weekend. Q. And can you tell us about the first time you I FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 discussed the article with Vice President Cheney? \ I A. You know, I don't remember it in any detail. It was the same claim that we had had around since May. It's just now it had a name of it. Now we knew it was Ambassador Wilson. And there was this, you know, accusation of twisting the facts directly by somebody by name. So it was a concern. I Q. Do you recall any reaction, whether he was upset? A. I'm sure he was upset. I don't recall the conversation all that clearly, but I'm sure he was upset. I Q. And in terms of accusations against the administration, putting aside the truth or falsity of it -- A. Yes, sir. I Q. --we understand your view and as we said, the Grand l~ur~ is not here to determine what the truth or falsity of particular assertions are -- A. Yes, sir. Q. --this as an accusation was a direct accusation that the Vice President was dishonest, if you followed the inferences that Mr. Wilson made, that the President was dishonest and that the country was misled into war. Is it fair to say that that was the --perhaps the most serious attack on the administration's credibility thus far in the Presidential term? A. It was a serious accusation. I'd, I'd have to go back, back over the administration to evaluate it compared to FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 lother attacks, but it was, it was a very serious attack. Q. Well, as you sit here now, can you think of any other time in the administration where someone directly came lout by name and accused the administration of deliberately exaggerating and twisting intelligence with regard to specifi facts? A. Well, the sixteen words had been around. That the 1 sixteen words were false and shouldni t have been in there, ha lbeen around for awhile, and I can't remember exactly when 1the --what level of attack came from what. But' this - - that was certainly --this realm of issue reminds me, comes to I as a very serious attack from it. I don't recall mind, sitting here whether there was anything in tax policy or any other policy that quite amounts to this. I Q. And given that the sixteen words were believed to lhave been part of a speech setting up the administration's case for war against Iraq, is it fair to say that this was a very, very serious matter during the week of July 7th through the 14th at the White House? A. Yes, sir. Q. And was it a discussion of --that was --was it a topic that was discussed on a daily basis? Q. And it was discussed on multiple occasions each day in fact? FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 A. Yestsir. Q. And during that time did the Vice President indicatc that he was upset that this article was out there which falsely in his'view attacked his own credibility? A. Yes, sir. Q. And do you recall what it is that the Vice President said? A. I recall that he was very keen to get the truth out. He wanted to get all the facts out about what he had or hadn't done, what the facts were or were not. He was very keen on that and said it repeatedly. Let's get everything out. He wanted to get it all out. That, that I recall. Q. Do you recall if you ever discussed a copy of the article with Vice President Cheney --in front of you when he talked about? A. Physical copy in front of him? I don't recall that. He often cuts out an article and keeps it on his desk somewhere and thinks about it and I subsequently learned that he had such an article from the FBI agents who talked to me. Q. And had you seen that copy of the article before the FBI showed it to you during the course of the investigation? A. I, I don't recall it. It's possible if it was sitting on his desk that, you know, my eye went across it. I don't, I don't recall him pulling it out and saying something to him, but we talked about the article a fair amount. FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 MR. FITZGERALD. And let me show you a copy of* the \ article with handwritten notes on it. MS. KEDIAN. Grand Jury Exhibit 8. BY MR. FITZGERALD: Q. And in looking at Grand Jury Exhibit 8, can you tell us if you recognize the handwriting at the top, top of both pages? A. Yes, sir. It looks like the Vice President's Q. Okay. And I take it you're familiar with his handwriting? A. I am. I couldn't necessarily pick it out from similar handwriting, but this looks like his handwriting to me. Q. Okay. And is it fair to say that there's various items underlined in this copy? I A. Yes, sir. Q. Does that include the sentence, "1 have little choice but to conclude that some of the intelligence related to Iraq's nuclear weapons program was twisted to exaggerate I the Iraqi threat?" I A. Yes, sir. Q. And does it also include handwriting at the top of the page that says, that reads, "have they done this sort of thing before?" FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 A. I'm sorry, are you asking me if that appears at the top of the page? Q. Yes. A. Yes, sir, it does. Q. And does it say beneath that, send our --"send an ambassador to answer a questionl1? A. Yestsir. Q. And does it say below that, Itdo ordinary send people out pro bono to work for us?" A. It does, sir. I Q. And does the top of the page have a note that continues over to the second page, "or did his wife send him Ion a junket?" Q. And do you recall ever discussing those issues with Vice President Cheney? A. Yes, sir. Q. And tell us what you recall about those conversations. A. I recall that along the way he asked, is this normal for them to just send somebody out like this uncompensated, as lit says. He was interested in how did this person come to be selected for this mission. And at some point after we learned that his wife worked at the Agency, you know, he --that was lpart of the question. FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 Q. Okay. And is it fair to say that he had told you back in June, June 12th or before, prior to the Pincus article, that his wife worked in the functional office of Counterprol.iferation of the CIA. Correct? A. Yes, sir. Q. So when you say, that after we learned that his wife worked at the Agency, that became a question. Isn't it fair to say that you already knew it from June 12th or earlier? A. I believe by, by this week I no longer remembered that. I had forgotten it. And I believe that because when it was told to me on July 10, a few days after this article, it seemed to me as if I was learning it for the first time. When I heard it, I did not think I knew it when I heard. Q. Okay. So let me back up a moment. We'll get to the July 10 conversation. A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you recall when the Vice President told you do we ordinarily send --or did the wife send him a junket, when you had that conversation? Do you know when that was in relation to the July 6 article? A. I don't recall that conversation until after the, until after the Novak piece. I don't recall it during this week of July 6. I recall it after the Novak conver --after the Novak article appeared I recall it, and I recall being asked by the Vice President early on, you know, about this FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Deposit ions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 envoy, you know, who is it and --but I don't recall that, I early on he asked about it in connection with the wife, although he may well have given the note that I took. Q. And so your recollection is that he wrote on July -- that you discussed with the Vice President, did his wife send him on a junket? As a response to the July 14th Novak column that said, he was sent because his wife sent him and she works at the CIA? A. I don't recall discussing it --yes, I don't recall Idiscussing it in connection with when this article first I appeared. I recall it later. Q. And are you telling us under oath that from July 6th to July 14th you never discussed with Vice President Cheney whether Mr. Wilson's wife worked at the CIA? A. No, no, I'm not saying that. On July 10 or 11 I I I learned, I thought anew, that the wife --that, that reporters I lwere telling us that the wife worked at the CIA. And I may I have had a conversation then with the Vice President either late on the 11th or on the 12th in which I relayed that reporters were saying that. When I had that conversation I had forgotten about the earlier conversations in which he told me about --reflected in my notes that we went over this morning, in early June, before the Pincus article, when he had told me about that the wife worked at the CIA. I had just forgotten it. FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 Q. And just fix the, the person --who did you speak to on July 10th or llth that you recalled learning again, thinking it was for the first time, that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA? A. Tim Russert of NBC News, Washington Bureau Chief for NBC News. Q. And so we'll come back to that conversation in a, moment. A. Yes, sir. Q. Is it your testimony under oath that you don't I recall discussing Wilson's wife working at the CIA between the July 6th date when the Wilson's Op-ed appeared and your I conversation with Tim Russert? I A. That's correct, sir, but my --I don't really --I I don't recall discussing it. What I do.recal1 is being surprised when I talked to Mr. Russert on the 10th or the llth, and I am inferring from that surprise that I hadn't ltalked about it earlier in the week. I simply do not recall I any discussion early in the week about Mrs. Wilson. What I do recall is that I was surprised when I heard it from Mr. Russert. Q. Let me ask you this. Do you recall going to lunch on July 7th with Ari Fleischer? A. I do, sir. Q. Okay. And do you recall what you discussed over I I FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 lunch with Ari Fleischer? A. Yes, it had been scheduled for some time. Ari was leaving the White House. He was a friend, is a fr,iend. And we had decided we would get together for lunch before he left as sort of a good-bye lunch. And we discussed the Miami Dolphins, because we're both Miami Dolphins fans; we discussed his plans for the future, what he was going to do, work in New York, I think it was, or start a consulting-type firm if I I recall; and you know, it had been fun to work together; and we 1 probably also discussed the uranium business because it was a very hot topic at that point. I don't recall it as clearly as I do the Miami Dolphins and his plans for the future because that was the point of the lunch. Q. And in the discussion, discussing the uranium issue, do you know if you discussed Mr. Wilson? I A. I don't recall it, but I suspect we did because it I was a very --you know, that was just --now, but I don't recall it. Q. And on July 7th, do you recall if at the 6:45 briefing in the morning you and the Vice President asking I Craig Schmall about Mr. Wilson and the circumstances of his I trip? A. I don't, but it makes sense because the article had come out the day before. Q. And do you recall if at the senior staff meeting at I FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 8:45 that day whether or not Karl Rove and others discussed \ that we needed to get a message out about Mr. Wilson, which is that the administration and the Vice President in particular, did not send him to Niger and that his report did not resolve the issue? I A. That sounds right. There was a day --I recall a I day or maybe two when Karl spoke about it at the senior staff meeting. In one of them, I made some notes about it. I dOn'tl recall the date, but that would --it was right in that day -- I it was within a day of that, if it wasn't that day. I Q. And are you aware that at 9:22 that day Cathie Martin, the Press Secretary, e-mailed Ari Fleischer with four talking points to get out --the talking points concerning the Vice President's position which included the fact that the Vice President didn't send Wilson to Niger? We can show you that e-mail, I believe, as an exhibit, and see if that refreshes your recollection that the Vice President's press II person was addressing this issue to Mr. Fleischer that day. MS. KEDIAN. Grand Jury, Grand Jury Exhibit 54. BY MR. FITZGERALD: Q. And 1/11 just read into the record, July 7th, 9:22, response to Joe Wilson. Four bullets. The Vice President's Office did not request the mission to Niger. The next bullet : The Vice President's Office was I1 FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 not informed of Joe Wilson's mission. Next bullet: The Vice President's Office did not receive a briefing about Mr. Wilson's mission after he returned. Final bullet: The Vice President's Office was not aware of Mr. Wilson's mission until recent press reports accounted for it. A. Yes. Q. Do you, do you recall if you were aware of those talking points at the time, on July 7th? A. I don't know that I saw this e-mail, but those were our basic talking points that we tried to get out, and I recall that Ari some time that day, it might have been at the 1 olclock, made a statement which covered these types of points. And so therefore, it's quite likely I talked to him about it at the lunch as well. Q. And I believe if we checked, it might be at 9:36 I I that morning that Ari Fleischer, in a press gaggle, made the points that the Vice President did not request the trip, or know about it, or get briefed on the results. A. That actually sounds right, sir. Q. And thereafter, after the 6:45 briefing with the CIA briefer, and the senior staff meeting, and then Cathie Martin's e-mail, and Ari Fleischerls press gaggle, you then lwent to lunch with Mr. Fleischer about noon? I FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Q. And do you have any recollection as you sit here now discussing Mr. Wilson with Ari Fleischer? A. I don't, I don't recall it, but it's pretty --it -- you know, it makes sense and it's pretty likely. I just don't recall that, that part of the discussion with, with Ari. I think, if we were --as we were discussing uranium in that, period what I would be particularly concerned about was the NIE and what the, what the NIE had actually said because we I were still in a stage before, as I recall, before' Ari Fleischer came out and said it was a mistake to have the claim about uranium in the State of the Union. It was a big issue I as to whether that --this was a much bigger issue than the Wilson trip as to whether or not it was a mistake to have it in the State of the Union. And there was this NIE which had this assertion about the uranium. So I suspect that would I have also been my focus for a discussion with -- Q. And -- A. Sorry, sir. Q. Do you recall if you discussed Mr. Wilson's wife during the lunch with Ari Fleischer? A. I don't recall discussing the wife. Because I was surprised at the discussion a few days later with, with Tim Russert, I would think that we did not discuss the wife. I just --but I don't recall. FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 Q. And as you sit here today, you do recall that that was the day that Ari Fleischer addressed some questions about Mr. Wilson's article at the press gaggle. Correct? A. I've seen the transcript since then, so that's what I recall really. Q. And you recall that some time that day, but not by lunch time, Mr. Fleischer, or some time after lunch either that day or the next, Mr. Fleischer issued a statement indicating in effect that the President didn't stand behind the sixteen words. Is that correct? A. I recall from looking at the record that it was the 7th that he made that statement, and that was the day I had the lunch. Q. And you recall that you had lunch with Mr. Fleischer? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you recall discussing Mr. Fleischerls future. Correct? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you recall discussing the Miami Dolphins. Correct? A. Yes, sir. I recall all that quite clearly. I had a lot of conversations during this period about this other stuff and I just don't recall it as distinctly as I only had one conversation about the Miami Dolphins in that period, so -- FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 Q. Do you recall telling Mr. Fleischer that WilsonO1s \ wife worked at the CIA in the Counterproliferation Division? A. No, I don't. Q. And is it possible that you told Mr. Fleischer during that lunch that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA in the Counterproliferation Division? A. It's possible --well, I don't recall it and I recall being surprised by Russert. So I tend to think I didn't know it then, but that's all I actually recall. Q. Isn't it a fact, sir, that you told Mr. Fleischer over lunch that this was llhush-hushll or "on the q.t." that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA? A. I don't recall that. Q. Do you recall discussing Mr. Wilson's wife's name with Mr. Fleischer? A. No, I don't think I knew it until the Novak article Q. And what do you recall Mr. Wilson's wife's name to be? A. From the Novak article, Plame. Valerie Plame. Q. And how would you pronounce it, in a hard A or in a French way? A. I guess just what I said, Plame, like blame, I guess. Q. Rhyming with blame? A. I guess, yeah. FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 I Q. And as you sit here today do you recall whether or lnot you discussed whether or not Mr. Wilson's wife worked in I1the Counterprolif eration Division? I A. I do not recall discussing Mr. Wilson's wife at all with Ari. All I recall is --from that week is the Tim Russert conversation. Q. So as you sit here today, it's your testimony that I prior to your conversation with Tim Russert you neither Idiscussed Wilson's wife's employment with either the Vice President or with Ari Fleischer, following the ~ul~ 6th A. I'm sorry, my mind wandered. You're asking about -- could you repeat it? I'm sorry. Q. Sure. From July 6th up until the point when you spoke to Tim Russert, but not after, is it your testimony that you have no recollection of discussing Wilson's wife's employment at the CIA with either Vice President Cheney or Ari Fleischer? A. Yes, sir. In that period I have no recollectionl that's correct. Q. And do you recall discussing with Cathie Martin between July 6th and July 10th the fact that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA? A. No. As I say, when I heard it from Tim Russert, lwhich was on the 10th or the llth, I was surprised by what I I FREE STATE REPORTING, INC, Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 heard, and that's all I really recall from that week. So.1 '\ donl't recall any other discussion earlier in that week about it. Q. Prior to your conversation with Tim Russert, do you lever recall telling Cathie Martin that Wilson's wife worked at I the CIA? A. No, sir. Q. Prior to your conversation with Tim Russert on July 10 or 11, do you ever recall a conversation where Cathie IMartin told you that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA? I A. No, sir. Q. And do you recall an occasion on or about July 8th where Cathie Martin came into the Vice President's Office with you present, and the Vice President, and indicated that Iwilsonls wife worked at the CIA, that she had learned that? I Q. Yes. A. I --again, sir, I don't, I. don't recall. What I recall --all my recollection on this point is hinged on my surprise when I heard it from Tim Russert and I'm inferring the rest from that. I don't recall much about the --anything about that subject in the week. What I recall from that week is being concerned to get the statement --a clear statement out from the CIA, the Agency, from Director Tenet, and there lwas a lot of discussion during that week, as you've probably I FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 seen,in my notes, and I was very much focused on getting the main part of the case out about whether --about what the CIA had told us in October and subsequently about uranium, and I Idonlt recall these discussions that youf re referring to. Q. And is it fair to say that this reason this became such a hot issue that week was the sort of the firestorm that came as a result of the July 6th Wilson Op-ed piece? Correct? A. Yes, sir. Q. And just so we're clear, I understand what you J recall about your conversation with Russert, but the time period before that, are you telling this Grand Jury you have Ino recollection of having the conversation on any day that lweek in which Cathie Martin told you in the, in the presence lof the Vice President that Wilson1 s wife worked at the CIA? A. I have no recollection of that conversation. My lfirst recollection is Tim Russert telling me that. I Q. Now, do you recall a conversation in which Cathie Martin told you and the Vice President that Bill Harlow, the 1public affairs person at the CIA, had been receiving calls f rorn Andrea Mitchell and David Mart in about the controversy about the State of the Union address? A. I recall that there were --that the CIA was Ireceiving calls from --yes, I recall something about that. I donf t recall the Cathie Martin part, but it makes sense that 1it was Cathie that told us. FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 Q. And do you recall being instructed by the Vice President that you should call Andrea Mitchell and David Martin? A. It sounds right, sir, yes. Q. Do you recall calling Andrea Mitchell? A. Yes, I recall calling Andrea Mitchell and I recall calling David Martin. Q. And do you know how many times that week you spoke to Andrea Mitchell? A. My recollection is that I talked to her once about an incorrect report, and then after my phone call with Tim Russert I spoke to her again. I think on the second conversation, I'm not sure whether it was that week, or early the next week or some time the next week. Q. So you have two conversations with Andrea Mitchell. One before your Russert conversation and one after your Russert conversation? A. That's my general recollection, sir. Q. And do you recall the subject matter of the conversation you had with Andrea Mitchell before you spoke to Tim Russert? A. Yes. She had said something incorrect in one of her television appearances, and I was trying to correct that. Q. Do you know what it was that she said that had been incorrect? FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 A. There were two things being --in that period that people were saying incorrectly that touched on the Vice President's Office. One had to do with Halliburton. I think this had to do' with the Wilson claim that we had sent him, but I'm not sure. I'd have to see what --if I looked at what she said that week I might be able to figure it out. MR. FITZGEWLD. Okay. And why don't we show you the July 8th transcript of Andrea Mitchell speaking at 6:40 p.m. MS. KEDIAN. Exhibit 55. (Long pause while witness reading) WITNESS. I think I see something here. BY MR. FITZGERALD: Q. Are you finished reading the article? Q. Something ring a bell when you read it? A. Yes, it says towards the bottom of the page here it Isays, .the White House blamed an October CIA report for I ignoring Wilson's information and not requesting the original documents in which the charge was based for more than a year." And this was not --two things, it was not right. I don't think anybody blamed the CIA for ignoring his information. In fact, I think he --the CIA had looked at his information, had found that it, as reported in the NIE in October, had found -- lin fact, far from ignoring it, they looked at it and found I FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 that it did not contradict the claim, and in fact supported 1 the claim that Iraq was trying to buy uranium from Niger. So --but phrased this way, that we blamed --that the White House blamed an October CIA report for ignoring the information, quite to the contrary. I think it was argued that the CIA had properly taken everything into consideration and it still concluded, as they said in the October NIE, whick was six months after Ambassador Wilson's report, had still concluded that there was good grounds, and in fact had concluded flat out that Iraq had begun to try, vigorously trying to procure uranium. So there wasn't a criticism of the CIA for ignoring Ambassador Wilson as she said. I think thought the CIA was right in how they evaluated it. But phrased like this, it would likely be a subject that got the CIA upset. Q. And is it fair to say that earlier in the transcript that Ms. Mitchell, who had been the person to interview Mr. Wilson on Meet the Press just two days before, had discussed Joseph Wilson in that brief TV segment, and also played a news clip from his Sunday TV appearance? A. Yes, it shows that here. Q. And do you recall, looking at that transcript, whether regarding his discussing Joseph Wilson and playing a clip, when you talked to Andrea Mitchell before you spoke to Russert, you talked to Andrea Mitchell about Joe Wilson? FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 A. I'm sorry, sir, I was --I was trying to look at the clip that you were referring to and I didn't hear your question. I'm sorry. Q. In your conversation with Andrea Mitchell, the first conversation that week which you recall happened before you spoke to Mr. Russert, do you know if you spoke to Ms. Mitchell about Ambassador Wilson? A. I think if I, if I spoke to her earlier that week this probably was the subject that I was speaking to, speaking to her about. I would have to be sure I --it would be better if I looked at everything she said that week, but I think this was probably it. It could also have been the Sunday show because I don't, I don't have the benefit of knowing what day I spoke to her on that --did you say it was the 8th or -- I Q. Well, she had --her appearance on TV was the 8th. I l~nd I believe if we look at some notes, we might be able to I locate, that the Vice President --there's an indication that the Vice President told you to speak to Andrea Mitchell on the 8th. A. Well, that would have been before this broadcast then most likely. And this is a 6:30 --am I reading this right, it's a -- Q. Yes, it's a 6:30 broadcast. I I A. So if it was during the day that day, maybe he was lreferring to an earlier thing, that's all I'm saying. I don't1 FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 Q. Do you have any recollection of discussing Ambassador Wilson with Andrea Mitchell in that conversation you had, the first conversation that week? A. There was something Andrea said earlier that week that I think I discussed with her and I think that it was probably Ambassador Wilson, that was wrong. And it may not have been this one actually. This may be the one that I --I lalso complained to Tim Russert about something she had said, and maybe that1 s what this is, and maybe I was co'mplaining about something earlier. Maybe it was the Sunday show, I don1 t know. I Q. And do you know, do you have a recollection of whether or not you discussed Ambassador Wilson's wife when you lspoke to Andrea Mitchell during the conversation that week Ithat occurred prior to your speaking to Russert? A. I, I do not believe that I spoke to her about, about Ambassador Wilson's wife prior to my conversation with Tim Russert. I Q. And is that because it's your testimony that you don't believe you remembered at the time that you had learned labout Ambassador Wilson's wife the month before? A. Yes, sir. And I have no recollection of talking to lher about that at that point. She's a member of the press. JNO~ somebody in the White House, and that would have a FREE STATE REPORTING, INC. Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area (301) 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. (410) 974-0947 I separate impact on me and I just don't believe I did talkato 1her 'about that. 1 Q. And so you would have a more specific recollection if you spoke to a press person -- A. Ithink-- Q. --than if you spoke to someone in the White House? I --I think, yeah. A- Q. Do you remember Bob Novak calling you on July 8th? I A. Calling me? Q. Yes. A. No, sir. Q. Do you know if you spoke to him at all prior to the l~ul~ 14th column appearing under NovakJs byline? I A. No. I remember I had one conversation with Bob INovak in this period. My recollection of it is that when I spoke to him he had all of the basic facts that we have in our Icase, by which I mean the type of facts that Cathie Martin gave to Ari Fleischer that morning that the Vice President Ididnlt request the mission; the Vice President was not informed of his mission; that we did not --that the Vice l~resident did not receive a briefing about the mission after I he returned, the Vice President nor I at the higher levels; land that the, the Vice President was not aware of the mission luntil later on, and what we saw was actually the